Server status
DCS version: 1.5.6, 2.0.5
SR version: 1.2.9.1/1.2.6.0
DCS OB same version as DCS Stable? Yes!
August 2017
MonTueWedThuFriSatSun
 123456
78910111213
14151617181920
21222324252627
28293031   

Calendar Calendar

Latest topics

High overhead approach 450 degree procedure (into a hot LZ)

View previous topic View next topic Go down

High overhead approach 450 degree procedure (into a hot LZ)

Post by (B/229) Blade on Tue 21 Jun 2016 - 22:44

Hi Guys,

I just quoted the book Rattler One-Seven over at DCS forum for a question about this RL 'Nam procedure, maybe it could raise some interest here too...

„…we would fly over the LZ so that wind was 90 degrees off the left side of the helo, altitude about 2500 feet – a good margin for safety from small arms fire. When we were directly over the LZ, we would lower the collective, and roll the bird into a steep left turn. This would set up the helicopter in a steep descending turn. Rate of descend would be 2-3000 feet/minute as we made our 450 degree turn. Within seconds of starting the approach, we would begin our roll out and be established on short final to the LZ. All we had to do was flare the helicopter while adding power, and within seconds we would be hovering in the LZ. Benefit of it was it took a mninimum amount of time to get into the LZ, and if we get hit while the approach, we just continued down into the LZ where friendly troops were located. Many pilots would do 360 degree high overheads, but I liked the 450 better."

AC's (Aircraft Commander) fly normally right seat, but in Vietnam they flew left seat for a better visibility through left bubble with less dashboard obstruction. Also mentioned, "...due to aerodynamics of the helicopter it was better to execute a high overhead approach in a left turn, instead of right. ..." and "...being the AC, you wanted to be on the side of the aircraft in which you were making the turn, which allowed you to see better what was taking place on the ground as you shoot your approach."

Cheers

(B/229) Blade
Warrant Officer 1
Rated Aviator (MQ)
Warrant Officer 1 Rated Aviator (MQ)

Messages : 136

Back to top Go down

Re: High overhead approach 450 degree procedure (into a hot LZ)

Post by (B/229) Cib on Tue 21 Jun 2016 - 23:04

We can practice it next time we are on together Smile

_________________

avatar
(B/229) Cib
Captain
Company Commander
Rated Senior Aviator
Captain Company Commander Rated Senior Aviator

Messages : 944
Age : 51
Location : North East England

Back to top Go down

Re: High overhead approach 450 degree procedure (into a hot LZ)

Post by (B/229) Blade on Wed 22 Jun 2016 - 0:29

Yeah, for sure, but I wouldn't want to knock my lead out of the sky, so first off I will definitely try to make it singleship to have a general feel for the procedure and the control settings on each phase of the approach. Then try it in a rather loose formation, then when it runs well, just then close it up. Because descent rate is pretty close to autorotation regime in a first place...

As far as I remember they made it max. two ships, but I might be wrong plus or minus. I listened to it pretty long time ago (as I got to like to listen to audio books for driving.)

(B/229) Blade
Warrant Officer 1
Rated Aviator (MQ)
Warrant Officer 1 Rated Aviator (MQ)

Messages : 136

Back to top Go down

Re: High overhead approach 450 degree procedure (into a hot LZ)

Post by (A/229) Bandit 89 on Wed 22 Jun 2016 - 7:11

A great book. This was the first time I heard this procedure mentioned after reading a number of similar books. Sounds like fun!
avatar
(A/229) Bandit 89

Messages : 80
Location : Ontario, Canada

Back to top Go down

Re: High overhead approach 450 degree procedure (into a hot LZ)

Post by (HHC/229) Skullz on Thu 23 Jun 2016 - 4:51

I tried this procedure after I saw this post and it's awesome, I love it!

_________________
229th Assault Helicopter Battalion, 1stCavDiv
-The Stacked Deck Battalion-
avatar
(HHC/229) Skullz
Lt Col
Battalion Commanding Officer
Rated Senior Aviator
Lt Col Battalion Commanding Officer Rated Senior Aviator

Messages : 721
Age : 46
Location : Fayetteville, North Carolina

Back to top Go down

Re: High overhead approach 450 degree procedure (into a hot LZ)

Post by (A/229) Chic on Thu 23 Jun 2016 - 5:12

(HHC/229) Skullz wrote:I tried this procedure after I saw this post and it's awesome, I love it!

Good to se ya Skullz.

_________________

(A/229) Chic
Chief Warrant Officer 3
Rated Senior Aviator
Unit Trainer
Chief Warrant Officer 3 Rated Senior Aviator Unit Trainer

Messages : 311
Location : Connecticut, USA

Back to top Go down

Re: High overhead approach 450 degree procedure (into a hot LZ)

Post by (HHC/229) flyer on Thu 23 Jun 2016 - 6:18

During my time in the Army, I had never heard of a maneuver like the one described above, taught as a technique for getting into a hot LZ but I did get to experience it once when an instructor, who was a Vietnam pilot asked if I wanted to see what an autorotation from stationary hover at 2500 feet was like.  He didn’t describe it as a combat technique but a stationary turning autorotation from altitude to a hover.  

It was during my initial training in the TH-55 and after finding a suitable clearing he came to a stationary hover at 2500 ft. AGL over a rather small clearing surrounded by very high tree's about 10 west of Ft. Rucker, Alabama.  He began the maneuver by dropping the collective and adjusting the pedals for an autorotational decent.  Immediately, he set the aircraft into a corkscrew turn to the left (he was sitting on the left) and did several 360's around the clearing (LZ), keeping the LZ out of his side.  

As we approached 100 feet AGL (about tree top level), he began to decelerate while still turning and as we reached 15 feet he began to pull collective.  Talk about a pucker factor…try watching tree’s wiz past, while the ground is rushing up to greet you.  He never chopped the engine so, as he added torque the aircraft began to settle into a hover at about 5 feet.  I must add, it was only a demonstration, I was not allowed to try it…just experience it…but it was worth it.   The entire maneuver took just seconds to get into the LZ, so I can see how this could be a fast entry technique into a hot LZ but it must have been a unit trained technique because after that day, I never saw it again.

It is a very dangerous maneuver, so I would suggest lots of practice and lots of spacing between aircraft to make multi-ship operations a success.  Please put videos up of successful approaches, I would love to see them.

_________________
Head Quarters Company, 229th Assault Helicopter Battalion, 1stCavDiv
Battalion S-1
avatar
(HHC/229) flyer
Major
S1
Instructor Pilot
Rated Master Aviator
Major S1 Instructor Pilot Rated Master Aviator

Messages : 1274
Age : 56
Location : Titusville, Florida

Back to top Go down

Re: High overhead approach 450 degree procedure (into a hot LZ)

Post by (B/229) Cib on Thu 23 Jun 2016 - 7:25

I tried earlier will try recording the track I failed btw

_________________

avatar
(B/229) Cib
Captain
Company Commander
Rated Senior Aviator
Captain Company Commander Rated Senior Aviator

Messages : 944
Age : 51
Location : North East England

Back to top Go down

Re: High overhead approach 450 degree procedure (into a hot LZ)

Post by (A/229) Hawkeye on Thu 23 Jun 2016 - 14:02

<---  Plopped 3 into Heaps of Twisted useless piles of doo doo and gave up....   no Video Needed  


_________________
avatar
(A/229) Hawkeye
Captain
Rated Senior Aviator
Captain Rated Senior Aviator

No. of Flights: : 764-(on 229th Servers)UH-1H only
Killed In Action: : Lots... :O
Slick No. of landings: : Always Landed
Messages : 158
Age : 54
Location : KBTV

Back to top Go down

Re: High overhead approach 450 degree procedure (into a hot LZ)

Post by (B/229) Blade on Thu 23 Jun 2016 - 16:54

Not to brag, but my problem is rather how to make a video of it... Wink Never done any...

(B/229) Blade
Warrant Officer 1
Rated Aviator (MQ)
Warrant Officer 1 Rated Aviator (MQ)

Messages : 136

Back to top Go down

Re: High overhead approach 450 degree procedure (into a hot LZ)

Post by Guest on Thu 23 Jun 2016 - 21:58

Been in the back of Puma's and a Chinook when similar manoeuvres were performed as a tactic to avoid certain known threats. Also Wessex's but they seemed to be always more gentle in control inputs (?) and never did the side-slipping thing...

The Chinook was from around 5-6000', extreme banked left side-slipping descent, from memory about 2 x 360 and that was it we were running out the back... sphincter didn't get time to clench as the brain was too busy looking for it's stomach....

Guest
Guest


Back to top Go down

Re: High overhead approach 450 degree procedure (into a hot LZ)

Post by (B/229) Blade on Thu 23 Jun 2016 - 22:09

(D/229) Gizzy wrote:...sphincter didn't get time to clench as the brain was too busy looking for it's stomach....

I laughed my *** off!!!

(B/229) Blade
Warrant Officer 1
Rated Aviator (MQ)
Warrant Officer 1 Rated Aviator (MQ)

Messages : 136

Back to top Go down

Re: High overhead approach 450 degree procedure (into a hot LZ)

Post by (B/229) Cib on Thu 23 Jun 2016 - 23:03

Video software is available via fraps or a new one on me seems popular bandicam or if you have a newer nvidia card shadowplay is a feature. Google all of the above and you should find free ware all my video is taken with shadowplay

_________________

avatar
(B/229) Cib
Captain
Company Commander
Rated Senior Aviator
Captain Company Commander Rated Senior Aviator

Messages : 944
Age : 51
Location : North East England

Back to top Go down

Re: High overhead approach 450 degree procedure (into a hot LZ)

Post by (A/229) Hawkeye on Fri 24 Jun 2016 - 1:17

I've been using BandiCam for over 6+ years.. Never a complaint.

Questions?... just ask

_________________
avatar
(A/229) Hawkeye
Captain
Rated Senior Aviator
Captain Rated Senior Aviator

No. of Flights: : 764-(on 229th Servers)UH-1H only
Killed In Action: : Lots... :O
Slick No. of landings: : Always Landed
Messages : 158
Age : 54
Location : KBTV

Back to top Go down

Re: High overhead approach 450 degree procedure (into a hot LZ)

Post by (HHC/229) GunfighterSIX on Sun 26 Jun 2016 - 3:57

I would say altitude kills. Many units learned that when they started going against heavier AAA systems. During one battle the 229th and other unit lost 20+ aircraft in 3 days due to higher altitude tactics.

Sorry I have not been around more, busy working. Hope to get on ts soon.

_________________
avatar
(HHC/229) GunfighterSIX
Chief Warrant Officer 4
Battalion Standardization Instructor Pilot
Rated Master Aviator
Chief Warrant Officer 4  Battalion Standardization Instructor PilotRated Master Aviator

Messages : 746
Age : 35
Location : VA, USA

Back to top Go down

Re: High overhead approach 450 degree procedure (into a hot LZ)

Post by (A/229) Chic on Sun 26 Jun 2016 - 5:08

(HHC/229) GunfighterSIX wrote:I would say altitude kills.  Many units learned that when they  started going against heavier AAA systems.  During one battle the 229th and other unit lost 20+ aircraft in 3 days due to higher altitude tactics.

Sorry I have not been around more, busy working.  Hope to get on ts soon.

Good to see ya Six.

_________________

(A/229) Chic
Chief Warrant Officer 3
Rated Senior Aviator
Unit Trainer
Chief Warrant Officer 3 Rated Senior Aviator Unit Trainer

Messages : 311
Location : Connecticut, USA

Back to top Go down

Re: High overhead approach 450 degree procedure (into a hot LZ)

Post by (HHC/229) flyer on Sun 26 Jun 2016 - 10:20

Good to see you Six...I agree...altitude kills...probably not a good combat tactic...that why I never saw it again...be safe Six

_________________
Head Quarters Company, 229th Assault Helicopter Battalion, 1stCavDiv
Battalion S-1
avatar
(HHC/229) flyer
Major
S1
Instructor Pilot
Rated Master Aviator
Major S1 Instructor Pilot Rated Master Aviator

Messages : 1274
Age : 56
Location : Titusville, Florida

Back to top Go down

Re: High overhead approach 450 degree procedure (into a hot LZ)

Post by (HHC/229) GunfighterSIX on Sun 26 Jun 2016 - 14:19

Also I by no means wish to discourage you guys from trying different tactics from books you read and shows you watch. DCS is a great place to have fun testing that stuff out.

_________________
avatar
(HHC/229) GunfighterSIX
Chief Warrant Officer 4
Battalion Standardization Instructor Pilot
Rated Master Aviator
Chief Warrant Officer 4  Battalion Standardization Instructor PilotRated Master Aviator

Messages : 746
Age : 35
Location : VA, USA

Back to top Go down

Re: High overhead approach 450 degree procedure (into a hot LZ)

Post by (A/229) Bearfoot on Sun 26 Jun 2016 - 17:46

I always seem to end up flying under 500 ft AGL, and typically even lower, e.g. 200-300 ft AGL in DCS, even when there are no threats around. From what I read, cruising altitudes in VN were 1500-2500 ft AGL or so. But it takes so long to climb up here and then come down again, that I just putter along much lower. Good to know that I am practicing for a AAA environment!

I thought, though, that if no SAM's around, after the 1st GW aircraft generally flew higher to avoid AAA? If it is not classified, what would be the typical flying altitudes today if there are AAA?

Also, this left-seat/right-seat thing in VN is very confusing, with lots of different accounts. Certainly visibility is better in the RIGHT seat, no, not left as quoted above? That's clear in both photographs as well as the sim. From what I read, slicks generally had AC in right seat (for better visibility while landing), contra to standard civilian arrangement, while gun ships generally stuck to the AC in left seat?

(A/229) Bearfoot

Messages : 85

Back to top Go down

Re: High overhead approach 450 degree procedure (into a hot LZ)

Post by (B/229) Blade on Sun 26 Jun 2016 - 22:40

If you look at the Huey dashboard, there is definitely less obstruction/more view on the left side (looking ahead of course).

(B/229) Blade
Warrant Officer 1
Rated Aviator (MQ)
Warrant Officer 1 Rated Aviator (MQ)

Messages : 136

Back to top Go down

Re: High overhead approach 450 degree procedure (into a hot LZ)

Post by (A/229) Bearfoot on Mon 27 Jun 2016 - 2:56

(B/229) Blade wrote:If you look at the Huey dashboard, there is definitely less obstruction/more view on the left side (looking ahead of course).

Ah, this is true! Mixed it up in my head.

From "Chickenhawk":

"I was in the right seat, first pilot’s position, a courtesy extended by Daisy. Later I almost always flew from the left seat, even when I was the first pilot, because the left side of the Huey’s instrument panel was chopped and I could see straight down to the ground between my feet."

From "Gut 'N Gunships" (highly-recommended; in same league as "Chickenhawk" and "To the Limit"):

"In the civilian world, the aircraft commander flies from the right seat in a helicopter and from the left seat in a fixed wing aircraft. In Vietnam combat slick pilots flew command from the left seat, because they were always flying into very tight areas, and they needed all the visibility they could get through the chin bubble and the instrument panel was skewed to the right. This obstructed their view somewhat from the right seat. Gunship pilots, on the other hand, followed the civilian tradition, and flew command from the right seat, because they didn’t generally fly into tight LZs."

Garrison, Mark (2015-09-01). GUTS 'N GUNSHIPS: What it was Really Like to Fly Combat Helicopters in Vietnam (Kindle Locations 1465-1469). . Kindle Edition.

(A/229) Bearfoot

Messages : 85

Back to top Go down

Re: High overhead approach 450 degree procedure (into a hot LZ)

Post by (HHC/229) Skullz on Mon 27 Jun 2016 - 14:44

Here is an example of this maneuver, it takes good touch on the controls and balls of steel but it's not too difficult.


_________________
229th Assault Helicopter Battalion, 1stCavDiv
-The Stacked Deck Battalion-
avatar
(HHC/229) Skullz
Lt Col
Battalion Commanding Officer
Rated Senior Aviator
Lt Col Battalion Commanding Officer Rated Senior Aviator

Messages : 721
Age : 46
Location : Fayetteville, North Carolina

Back to top Go down

Re: High overhead approach 450 degree procedure (into a hot LZ)

Post by (B/229) NeF on Tue 28 Jun 2016 - 8:20

Interesting Wink
avatar
(B/229) NeF
Chief Warrant Officer 3
Rated Senior Aviator
Chief Warrant Officer 3 Rated Senior Aviator

Killed In Action: : At least a six pack
Messages : 940
Age : 32
Location : Brussels

Back to top Go down

Re: High overhead approach 450 degree procedure (into a hot LZ)

Post by (B/229) Cib on Tue 28 Jun 2016 - 8:47

I think we might try this on Thursday night NeF if you can make it Smile

_________________

avatar
(B/229) Cib
Captain
Company Commander
Rated Senior Aviator
Captain Company Commander Rated Senior Aviator

Messages : 944
Age : 51
Location : North East England

Back to top Go down

Re: High overhead approach 450 degree procedure (into a hot LZ)

Post by (B/229) IJammer on Tue 28 Jun 2016 - 12:07

Hi guy's, I recently finished reading the Chuck Gross 'Rattler 17' book... quite an interesting read, although I prefer Bob Mason's 'Chickenhawk' tour. Chuck Gross (Rattler 17) seems to have perfected this high altitude spiral approach and apparently used it quite often in Vietnam.  However, it seems that he did not get on too well with one of his CO's and he was advised to stop using the technique as it was considered dangerous.  Perhaps it was his CO just getting 'hard-balled' with him or maybe he considered a high approach exposed Gross to enemy fire?  Seems debatable to me... and would depend on the location of the LZ... a high approach would minimise small arms fire until you got right on top of the LZ but could expose you to missile attack (if there were any in the area).  I tried this steep left turn approach in the DCS Huey on the Virtual Aerobatics server... it is fun, but I managed to trash three out of five birds by failing to flair correctly and get the power back on in time (my forte LEL).  I am keen to practice it some more though... it can only make it better ^ Hope to see some of you Thursday...
avatar
(B/229) IJammer

Messages : 102
Age : 70
Location : Deep South, UK

Back to top Go down

Re: High overhead approach 450 degree procedure (into a hot LZ)

Post by Sponsored content


Sponsored content


Back to top Go down

View previous topic View next topic Back to top

- Similar topics

 
Permissions in this forum:
You cannot reply to topics in this forum