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Huey collective "idle" button

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Huey collective "idle" button

Post by (A/229) Trip on Sun 7 May 2017 - 18:03

Hey guys, the bottom right button on the Huey Collective head is labeled Idle in some images I find, and Stop/Rel in others it looks like.  

In DCS Huey manual it says "Starter switch (only for this game)".  I guess that means it is substituted for the trigger?  It then says in the real heli this switch is the engine idle stop release" but I'm not sure what the details of RL operation would be.

Anyhow, what is the real functionality for this button on the collective head? How and when is it used and exactly what does it do?

Is there a binding for this real proper function in DCS, separate from the starter? I am going to have the proper trigger for the starter so hope I can use this button completely realistically.

Thanks!

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Re: Huey collective "idle" button

Post by (A/229) Utley on Sun 7 May 2017 - 23:56

Its the button that prevents the throttle from rolling over accidentally from cutoff to idle and vice versa. You have to physically push that button in order to throttle up during startup, and release the button to idle cutoff. Think of it as a safety switch on a firearm.
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Re: Huey collective "idle" button

Post by (B/229) Blade on Sun 7 May 2017 - 23:58

If you push this button, you can decrease throttle below idle level, cutting off fuel totally and shutting down the engine. When you start up, you turn up the throttle just beyond this arrestor button, where it kicks in and prevents throttle from being accidentally be turned back below idle. For the startup however you push the button and turn it just a hair below the arresting point to allow you quickly chop fuel in case of any fire during startup without looking for the button first. If startup was OK, you turn the throttle up over the button, and then it kicks in keeping the throttle above idle no matter what.

I just got sniped by Utley... Laughing However as far as I know, you can override it without pressing it from cutoff towards idle, but not the other way around, for obvious reasons.

See this from around 0:38:

Turn throttle all the way up without touching idle button -> turn it down till idle stop, to check stopping -> push button, turn all the way down to check free ride -> turn all the way up then down untill stop -> push button and turn throttle a hair below stopping to enable quick cut off in case. Then Fuel on, look around the chopper, right hand starts stopwatch, left hand starts engine.


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Re: Huey collective "idle" button

Post by (A/229) Huckleberry on Mon 8 May 2017 - 1:51

You've got some good answers already, but here is my understanding on it just for good measure.

I believe the throttle all the way clockwise is a throttle that is fully closed, with no gas passing through.

If you turn the throttle counter clockwise, you will soon hit a barrier which is that engine idle stop position. I think you should depress the idle stop button and move the throttle through, resting it again on the other side of the idle stop barrier to achieve an 'engine idle' throttle state.


I've got a uh1 style collective and have mapped alot of those buttons to different things. Engine idle stop pulls up my kneeboard, and the hat switch left and right turns the pages.

If I ever need to map it back to my searchlight (which is rarely) I can do so pretty quickly in the settings.

Idle stop isn't functional in the DCS Huey to my knowledge, so the most practical thing would be to use it to make your HOTAS mapping be the best it can be.


Last edited by (A/229) Huckleberry on Mon 8 May 2017 - 9:16; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : Clockwise cc fix)
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Re: Huey collective "idle" button

Post by (B/229) Blade on Mon 8 May 2017 - 2:13

(A/229) Huckleberry wrote:You've got some good answers already, but here is my understanding on it just for good measure.

If you turn the throttle clockwise, you will soon hit a barrier which is that engine idle stop position. I think you should depress the idle stop button and move the throttle through, resting it again on the other side of the idle stop barrier to achieve an 'engine idle' throttle state.

Idle stop isn't functional in the DCS Huey to my knowledge, so the most practical thing would be to use it to make your HOTAS mapping be the best it can be.

I think the video shows it rather the way I described. No stopping in "Increase" direction, stop in decrease direction at idle position. Press for continue towards cutoff.

TM55-1520-210-10 (RL manual) chapter 2 section 2-19 Engine Fuel Control System:
An idle stop is incorporated in the throttle to prevent inadvertent throttle closure. To bypass the idle detent press the IDLE REL switch and close the throttle.

And tough it's been added some years ago, it works like this in DCS too (to match real life startup procedure), see DCS manual (ver. 2015. 05. 06) page 112:

Throttle – Set for start. Position the throttle as near as possible (on decrease side) to the engine idle stop position. To do so:
a) Roll the throttle fully left (increase) (Figure 9.1) from FULL CLOSE (Figure 9.2, 1) to FULL OPEN position by pressing and holding [PgUp].
b) Roll the throttle back to the right (decrease) by pressing and holding [PgDn] until the idle stop (Figure 9.2, 2) is reached and the throttle cannot rotate further past the detent.
c) Press [RWIN + T] to engage the IDLE RELEASE switch on the collective control box.
d) Press [PgDn] to roll the throttle just right (decrease) of the idle position. The throttle will now be set as near as possible (on decrease side) to the engine idle stop position as required for engine start.
e) Press [RWIN + T] again to release the IDLE RELEASE switch on the collective control box.

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Re: Huey collective "idle" button

Post by (A/229) Huckleberry on Mon 8 May 2017 - 2:52

Well, now there's a proper Huey startup! I stand corrected, and sorry for the misinformation.

Blade (or whoever, shout out if you know), this gives me a couple of questions revolving around getting real life procedural functionality out of DCS Huey's startup and shutdown.

The way you describe it, Idle Rel as portrayed by DCS is a push-to-engage and push-again-to-disengage system. That's not how it works in a real helicopter, right? Isn't it, press-and-hold to engage, and release to disengage? And is there a way to get that functionality in DCS?

And similarly, is there a way to map the throttle axis so that bottoming out the throttle doesn't stop at the idle stop, making you have to go press PG down if you want to get it to a proper engine start (slightly below idle stop) position?

Lastly, does startup actually occur in DCS, when doing it the way you describe? Where throttle is below idle stop slightly when spooling up? Or would it fail because the DCS model is inaccurate there and it thinks it's getting no gas?

I could try it myself but I'm out and about today, commenting from my phone.
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Re: Huey collective "idle" button

Post by (B/229) Blade on Mon 8 May 2017 - 3:05

(A/229) Huckleberry wrote:Well, now there's a proper Huey startup! I stand corrected, and sorry for the misinformation.

The way you describe it, Idle Rel as portrayed by DCS is a push-to-engage and push-again-to-disengage system. That's not how it works in a real helicopter, right? Isn't it, press-and-hold to engage, and release to disengage? And is there a way to get that functionality in DCS?

And similarly, is there a way to map the throttle axis so that bottoming out the throttle doesn't stop at the idle stop, making you have to go press PG down if you want to get it to a proper engine start (slightly below idle stop) position?

Lastly,  does startup actually occur in DCS, when doing it the way you describe? Where throttle is below idle stop slightly when spooling up? Or would it fail because the DCS model is inaccurate there and it thinks it's getting no gas?

I could try it myself but I'm out and about today, commenting from my phone.

I think DCS representation is rather a keypress programming question, probably holding (any other than Shift, Ctrl, Alt or other standard modifier?) key depressed prevents subsequent keypresses inoperative. I guess Comanchero is the right guy to ask about real life things. You can test DCS startup behaviour, I never did. If everything fine, you only press Idle detend only once every flight (or twice if you want to shut down also properly) anyway.

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Re: Huey collective "idle" button

Post by (C/229)Samri on Mon 8 May 2017 - 3:58

Just to clarify......You don't need to press the idle release switch to open the throttle past the idle position from the closed position....only to close it from the idle stop.

For info, the youtube clip above is a model fitted with a Starting Fuel Switch (additional to the Main Fuel Switch).   The DCS version is not fitted with the Starting Fuel Switch, which is switched off at 40% N1 during start.

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Re: Huey collective "idle" button

Post by (C/229)Samri on Mon 8 May 2017 - 4:20

DCS will start fine with the throttle just below the idle stop.  However, it unrealistically overtemps if started at the idle stop....The real thing starts fine at the idle stop. The logic of setting the throttle just through the idle stop is to be able to quickly close it in case of a hot start

I'm actually not sure (can't remember) that if the idle release switch solenoid failed, whether it would allow the throttle through the stop (or not?)...perhaps another reason to set it just below the stop? (Comanchero?)

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Re: Huey collective "idle" button

Post by (A/229) Skeeter on Mon 8 May 2017 - 5:05

I'm not sure on the huey but on my fire engine the idle button on the throttle on the pump panel knocks the engine to idle in case of pump issues.
Or if the rookie drops a hose....lol
LOL

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Re: Huey collective "idle" button

Post by (A/229) Comanchero86 on Mon 8 May 2017 - 6:12

(C/229)Samri wrote:DCS will start fine with the throttle just below the idle stop.  However, it unrealistically overtemps if started at the idle stop....The real thing starts fine at the idle stop. The logic of setting the throttle just through the idle stop is to be able to quickly close it in case of a hot start

I'm actually not sure (can't remember) that if the idle release switch solenoid failed, whether it would allow the throttle through the stop (or not?)...perhaps another reason to set it just below the stop? (Comanchero?)
The idle stop is a mechanical stop activated by the electric solenoid. If the electric solenoid fails there is no way from the cockpit to to release the stop. It can be released by going into the secondary hellhole and physically working the stop by hand. But that is a mechanics function used when checking rigging. This is why on startup you roll the throttle back just past the detent so that you can roll off the throttle in the event of a problem (normally a hot start) as Samri explained. Hope this helps.
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Re: Huey collective "idle" button

Post by (A/229) Skeeter on Mon 8 May 2017 - 6:23

Question
Lets say you did have a failure of the idle stop could you throw the fuel switch and save the engine?

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Re: Huey collective "idle" button

Post by (A/229) Comanchero86 on Mon 8 May 2017 - 6:28

(A/229) Skeeter wrote:Question
Lets say you did have a failure of the idle stop could you throw the fuel switch and save the engine?
Yup, but there is up to a 15 second delay from the time you throw the switch until the rest of the fuel is burned off/ dumped.
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Re: Huey collective "idle" button

Post by (A/229) Skeeter on Mon 8 May 2017 - 6:55

Thanks for the answer.
Dont yall fly in to the Mobile Vietnam Wall display over in Jackson MS?

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Re: Huey collective "idle" button

Post by (A/229) Comanchero86 on Mon 8 May 2017 - 7:08

(A/229) Skeeter wrote:Thanks for the answer.
Dont yall fly in to the Mobile Vietnam Wall display over in Jackson MS?
Yes we do. I'll be there with 3 Hueys and 3 Cobras. We will be giving rides at the Trail of Honor LZ. It's near the Harley of Jackson dealership. Stop by and say hello if you get a chance. I'll be wearing my Comanchero patch on my flight suit.
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Re: Huey collective "idle" button

Post by (A/229) Skeeter on Mon 8 May 2017 - 7:20

Will do we try to get down every year.
Will yall be down the whole weekend? We are shooting for the 20th that Sat to get there.

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Re: Huey collective "idle" button

Post by (A/229) Comanchero86 on Mon 8 May 2017 - 7:45

(A/229) Skeeter wrote:Will do we try to get down every year.
Will yall be down the whole weekend?  We are shooting for the 20th that Sat to get there.
I'll be there from 16 May to 22 May. We have a lot of "support" missions we will be doing that week. Will diffinately be there on the 20th. If you stop by I should be be able to get you in the cockpit of our Huey and Cobra for a pix. One caveat however, I could be flying when you get there. Usually we are flying for two hours or so before we are relieved.
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Re: Huey collective "idle" button

Post by (A/229) Utley on Mon 8 May 2017 - 9:37

(A/229) Comanchero86 wrote:
(A/229) Skeeter wrote:Will do we try to get down every year.
Will yall be down the whole weekend?  We are shooting for the 20th that Sat to get there.
I'll be there from 16 May to 22 May. We have a lot of "support" missions we will be doing that week. Will diffinately be there on the 20th. If you stop by I should be be able to get you in the cockpit of our Huey and Cobra for a pix. One caveat however, I could be flying when you get there. Usually we are flying for two hours or so before we are relieved.

How come you are still a WOC?
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Re: Huey collective "idle" button

Post by (A/229) Comanchero86 on Mon 8 May 2017 - 10:16

(A/229) Utley wrote:
(A/229) Comanchero86 wrote:
(A/229) Skeeter wrote:Will do we try to get down every year.
Will yall be down the whole weekend?  We are shooting for the 20th that Sat to get there.
I'll be there from 16 May to 22 May. We have a lot of "support" missions we will be doing that week. Will diffinately be there on the 20th. If you stop by I should be be able to get you in the cockpit of our Huey and Cobra for a pix. One caveat however, I could be flying when you get there. Usually we are flying for two hours or so before we are relieved.

How come you are still a WOC?

Lol, I'm so busy working and flying on the real thing plus taking care of business at the house. I feel fortunate to get a few hours to fly with you guys. Every time I train up to take a check ride,  something comes up,  I'm away from the Sim and I get rusty.
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Re: Huey collective "idle" button

Post by (A/229) Trip on Mon 8 May 2017 - 10:29

My real Huey collective should be here late this week! Then I start converting it for my simpit. =D

Hopefully I can get the idle stop switch working properly by powering the solenoid (anyone know how much voltage it needs?).  And hopefully I can get DCS set up so that the throttle functionality for startup works properly with the real controls.  Any advice or ideas on this would be appreciated!  Hopefully I can adjust the curve for the throttle axis to place the necessary "start" position just below the real mechanical idle stop.  Then the trick is to have DCS not require the idle stop button be operated for the throttle to register all the way down in to the "stop" region. Alternatively I might be able to wire a the idle switch to a PC controller in parallel with the solenoid trigger circuit.  Hopefully there is provision for this in the sim.  I might load up tonight to experiment, no cockpit currently but I can hook up a joystick and assign an axis etc. to test.  

I want to have all the buttons assigned 100% realistically, and plan to use all the extra buttons on my Warthog grip that don't exist on the B8 stick grip.

Thanks for all the replies, fantastic info here and I'm going to watch that video over and over until I memorize it for truly authentic start ups, unless one of our Huey flight instructors here tells me I shouldn't use that particular procedure.

It is amazing to have you real Huey guys available to answer questions, thank you so much for your time.

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Re: Huey collective "idle" button

Post by (A/229) Chic on Mon 8 May 2017 - 12:05

As mentioned, the throttle axis in DCS Huey doesn't function south of the detent.  Only Page Down key press works in that range.  Some have tried to fix this digitally, to no avail.  VoiceAttack, as is often the case, provides a reasonably immersion saving workaround.
A collective throttle control with an actual mechanical detent will work but its cost effectiveness is prohibitive considering how limited is the demand.

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Re: Huey collective "idle" button

Post by (A/229) Trip on Mon 8 May 2017 - 12:17

(C/229)Samri wrote:DCS will start fine with the throttle just below the idle stop.  However, it unrealistically overtemps if started at the idle stop....

@Chic Wait, what about this statement that Samri made?  If the throttle doesn't work below the throttle stop how can it be that the heli overtemps if started AT the throttle stop?  That would mean it would overtemp every time wouldn't it?  

Now assuming what you said is correct @chic are you saying there is no way to bind that function to a joystick button and the only way to shut down properly is with a keyboard or keyboard emulation?  That would suck.  Regardless, at the very least I should be able to rig the throttle control to push a button when it hits absolute minimum that will trigger the "off" position.  That is assuming that the little bellcrank looking thing I see at the base of my collective in the ebay pics is indeed the throttle which I don't know for sure.  



I'm also hoping the throttle friction and maybe even the collective friction devices are self contained in the collective and will work. If I'm super lucky maybe even the detente for going above 50% will be self contained and functional but that seems very unlikely to me.

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Re: Huey collective "idle" button

Post by (A/229) Chic on Mon 8 May 2017 - 12:30

(A/229) Trip wrote:
(C/229)Samri wrote:DCS will start fine with the throttle just below the idle stop.  However, it unrealistically overtemps if started at the idle stop....

@Chic Wait, what about this statement that Samri made?  If the throttle doesn't work below the throttle stop how can it be that the heli overtemps if started AT the throttle stop?  That would mean it would overtemp every time wouldn't it?  





Samri's statement stands.  What I'm saying is that the DCS control axis to which your RL Collective twist throttle is mapped is not functional south of the detent.  That's why you need Page Down in that range.

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Re: Huey collective "idle" button

Post by (A/229) Trip on Mon 8 May 2017 - 12:35

Ah, ok I get it.  I didn't realize that the page down key action below the idle cut off was still moving on a axis rather than a single "off position" which is how I believe the Warthog throttle works.

Man that sucks.  How have we not gotten BST to fix this yet?!  Curse you BelsimTek (but also thank you for making my favorite module)!

Proper startup and shutdown absolutely requires a keyboard?  That is an awful thing to do to simpit enthusiasts =(.  Or is the idle cuttoff position not used in a normal shutdown, but rather only in an emergency?

I guess the best thing I can do is hook a momentary button to the RL idle cut off button and have it emulate PGDN.  That sucks.

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Re: Huey collective "idle" button

Post by (B/229) Blade on Mon 8 May 2017 - 17:07

I really envy your biggest problem with DCS... Laughing

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