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Force Feedback for force trim?

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Force Feedback for force trim?

Post by (A/229) Trip on Mon 22 May 2017 - 7:18

Hey guys, I've been back and forth with this one a few times in my head and have almost posted on at least two occasions. Today I decided I might as well find out what you all have to say.

How well does force feedback work in DCS for force trim, and how well does the MS FFB2 work for flying the Huey overall? My understanding is that force trim is implemented correctly for the Huey module so it actually changes the "spring" center, is that correct?

I've got a heavily modded MSFFB2 setup with about 4x the torque of the stock version. I accomplished this by taking two FFB2's and doing the "give your FFB2 steroids" mod on both, then taking those and doing the "combine two ffb2 into one" mod. I built this for flying Warbirds in DCS, but now I'm tempted to use it to gain proper Force Trim in the Huey, and also lower priority but the same for the Shark and Hip.

The funny thing is I don't think I'll be using it much on the Huey except for startup and shutdown, but it will make me very happy to have it available. Also due to the nature of the "two into one" mod, I think I can pretty easily add Hydraulic damping!

The only reason I hesitate is I've got a microhelis.de cyclic base that has hydraulic damping and super accurate hall sensors so this will surely be a little bit of a downgrade in accuracy, but if the MSFFB2 accuracy is good enough and the "Force Trim" effect is realistic I think I'll go for it.

Thanks for any input,
Trip


PS- If you are wondering why I haven't just tested it myself, the answer is that my hacked MSFFB2 is not currently assembled. I had it in a temporary housing for initial testing with the P-51 (it worked great) and then I took it apart to build a much smaller and more attractive housing which I haven't made yet.

(A/229) Trip

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Re: Force Feedback for force trim?

Post by (A/229) Skeeter on Mon 22 May 2017 - 8:07

I might not be the best person to answer but I will give my input.
Flying with a warthog without extension I only need the force trim to remove the consistent pressure I have to keep on the stick.
If I remove the big spring (mod it) I never need force trim as the pressure needed to maintain position is not noticeable.  For helo flight I would choose smooth over real trim.

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Re: Force Feedback for force trim?

Post by (A/229) Trip on Mon 22 May 2017 - 13:08

Thanks Skeeter. For me I'm looking for realistic force trim, just to get me that much closer to the real thing. In the Huey I only really expect to use it during startup and shutdown so I can go by the book! When I get around to flying the Ka-50 I expect it will get a lot more use.

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Re: Force Feedback for force trim?

Post by (A/229) Brizzly on Fri 2 Jun 2017 - 23:12

Hey Trip,

Just for any background, I'm the same guy who was discussing force trim with Yogi over on the ED forums awhile ago (heloguy over there).

Anyway, I have a MSFFB2, and a Logitech G940 (currently on sale on Ebay). I would have to second Skeeter's response on having smooth control over force trim. I'm sure you can remember from my posts about force trim over at ED, I do want to have good force trim in the sim, but I recently got rid of the G940 in my setup, and I'm currently evaluating a VKB Gunfighter and Komodosim Cyclic (still waiting on my cyclic from Yogi).

At any rate, I prefer both the Gunfighter, and the Komodosim Cyclic over the G940. I also, awhile back, evaluated the FFB2 and the G940, and chose the G940 mostly because of the extra buttons. I will say that the MSFFB2 felt better in terms of centerplay, and the actual FFB mechanism. If you have modded everything extensively, and have all the buttons you could want on the cyclic, the MSFFB2 would be a better choice.

So, now that I've made a short story long, the bottom line is, yes, DCS does a good job simulating trim through force feedback effects. The MSFFB2 does this well, and if it suits you in all other ways (buttons, mounting position, etc.), rest assured it acts like the real thing would.

However, newer setups, as I'm sure Yogi's cyclic qualifies, have much more accuracy, and I find it easier to fly with both the Gunfighter, and the Komodosim cyclic due to this. With the G940, I felt like I was constantly making counter-inputs to maintain a steady hover, instead of just putting an input in and holding it with the newer, more accurate joysticks.
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Re: Force Feedback for force trim?

Post by (A/229) Trip on Fri 2 Jun 2017 - 23:34

Thanks @Brizzly . I actually put my heavily modded FFB2 in play for the time being. It's working fine, but I am concerned about the reduced accuracy so I expect to be trying to add Force Trim to my Microhelis cyclic base and use that instead.

The other complaint I have by the way about my FFB2 setup is probably due to imperfectly aligning the two FFB2 assemblies, but anyway when I release the Force Trim button the stick gets set to a slightly different position from where it is if I'm in the right half or rear half of the travel so I feel it tug the stick over which is annoying.

The funniest part of this whole thing is mostly I only care about having force trim for startup and shutdown procedures, but it will just annoy me if it isn't there LOL.

Ah hell, I just realized also that I'd have to hack my Warthog grip to wire the proper button to an actual RL Force Trim assembly. I don't want to do that since I still plan to use my Warthog on it's stock base for other aircraft and games. This is going to make me tempted to get a dedicated (cough *real B8* cough) grip for the helicopter cyclic LOL.

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Re: Force Feedback for force trim?

Post by (A/229) Chic on Sat 3 Jun 2017 - 12:44

Trip, you need an intervention.

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Re: Force Feedback for force trim?

Post by (D/229) Gizzy on Sat 3 Jun 2017 - 21:49

(A/229) Chic wrote:Trip,  you need an intervention.  

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia: This article is about orchestrated group interventions.  For the approach used in cognitive therapy, see cognitive interventions.

An intervention is an orchestrated attempt by one or many people – usually family and friends – to get someone to seek professional help with an addiction or some kind of traumatic event or crisis, or other serious problem.  The term intervention is generally used when the traumatic event involves addiction to flight simulation equipment or other items.

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Re: Force Feedback for force trim?

Post by (B/229) Molevitch on Fri 11 Aug 2017 - 17:33

Intervention, yes.... Like Trip, I find myself nowadays spending more time fiddling with my setup than actually flying. The obsession with replicating actual helicopter controls, and the fine detail of switches and buttons is definitely some kind of addiction. I go to sleep thinking about it, I stay up late with soldering irons and pliers, superglue and plasticard, aluminium extrusions and files, all trying to simulate that cockpit feel. I am beginning to think it's unhealthy!

Need to sort me a sig for here too.
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